Talk:Knights of Pen
Dear Ktchong, (I know that's a silly way to start a reply to a comment, but you've such a good handle, I just had to use it) I genuinely appreciate your clear and well-argued challenge to my ratings for a number of the Classes in this game. After a long hiatus I've picked this game up again and played through a few more times, concluding by the end that this guide could use an update and some refinement as I've discovered some new ways to use Classes and Players. I do not agree however with your basic argument here, and I will now proceed to defend my position. I should start by reminding both of us how I stated I was arriving at my conclusions about Classes: "I'm also going to give each class an overall rating. This isn't just an average of what their skills are, but an overall opinion based on what they can do, how many different things they can do, and how it all compares to their peers." To make sure that I'm understanding, allow me to sum up your argument: The Knight and Barbarian should be downgraded to 'great' while the Warrior, Thief, and Paladin should be upgraded to SAKA because a class without a group attack skill is inherently inferior (while a Class with one is iherently superior), with the exception of the Cleric who is a healing specialist and is therefore exempt. I find that categorizing any class without a group attack skill as great (at best) is too reductive. The fun of the game rests largely in building up a team of compatible and complementary adventurers. The Barbarian and Knight are in this sense specialists, just like the Cleric is a healing specialist without a decent reliable attack, and yet far from worthless. And they are both in their own way better at single-target attacks then the more versatile Warrior and Thief, to use your examples. The Barbarian is far tougher and regenerates better than any other class, and the Knight has the highest critical rate in the game as well as the best group protection skill. It would be like saying a sniper who can hit a bullseye at 5,000 feet will categorically never be as good as a private who knows how to throw a grenade. I would also argue that, in this game, crowd control is less important than potential single target damage, and increasingly so the further into the game you get. And I don't mean just boss fights, but Ice Trolls, Attack Beavers, pretty much all the lvl 30+ monsters really are much better tackled with the single attacks rather than the group ones. They have much higher health and show up as smaller groups. Meaning the single attack specialists may seem like a waste when you're still facing Bandits, but they become increasingly more valuable as the game progresses. I don't feel though like I've argued my case well enough yet, so I will end by presenting my reasoning for rating each of the five Classes you brought up here that you feel ought to be reevaluated: Paladin - great: The Paladin has an invaluable build, where he focuses on Smite and Lay on Hands. Group Weakness is devastating and Lay on Hands is the best single target healing spell in the game, I think. However, I didn't rate these Classes based on the single best possible build they could come up with. I rated them more holisitcally, including taking into account their worst skills. And Armor of Faith is just a dismal useless skill, even though Guiding Strike is a fine if unremarkable skill. So that one best Paladin build is without a doubt SAKA, but I find the Class as a whole lacking when compared to others. Warrior - great: I think I've come around to agreeing with you that the Warrior deserves SAKA status. His two SAKA skills are excellent and his other two skills are still pretty good, even Riposte, although I don't think there's really a Warrior build worth playing other than just using the two SAKA skills. I suppose why I left him as great has largely to do with his lack of flair. He's a rather blunt instrument and he doesn't really have much in the way of synergy with the other Classes. There's a better version of each thing he can do in other Classes, so I guess playing him feels just a little too boring for me. But that's too personal a reason, so I'll gladly change his rating to SAKA. Thank you for pointing that out. Barbarian - SAKA: Perhaps I similarly have a bias in favor of the Barbarian, because unlike the Warrior he's very interesting to play. Be that as it may, the Barbarian is still very much worthy. His entire purpose is maximizing both individual damage and his own survivability. There is one build that makes him practically immortal, which is so exceptional I think that alone merits overall SAKA status. But there are several builds that are nearly as impressive and just as effective, and he uses Rage unlike any other Class, and he can be a critical part of building up Sudden Death kills for the team. Yes, he lacks in versatility. But he's so exceptional at what he does that there is no question, in my mind at least, that he is definitely Super Awesome Kick Ass. Thief - great: Like the Paladin the Thief only has one really good build, and that's using Barrage of Knives. The fact that it doesn't really matter which of her skills is leveled next is not a laudable thing. Grappling Hook is great fun but very much on the low end of single target damage. Stealth I would place last in effectiveness among the many critical percentage enhancing skills. And Backstab is again fun but exceptionally limited seeing as it's useless after any monster's first hit. And for all of Barrage of Knives' spectacular bad-assery, it suffers a little from the fact that for it to really shine at least one Class in the team is required to provide conditions. This is also a good thing, as there's nothing more satisfying then watching your team work together to completely dominate the enemy. But one single amazing skill does not a SAKA Class make. Knight - SAKA: Here, like the Barbarian, I think it is unfair to diminish the value of the Knight solely based on the lack of a group attack. Where the Barbarian's play style is aggressive, the Knight's is defensive, and there's simply no one better at it. He does have one skill, Second Skin, that is inferior to his others - but that's a reflection of how good the others are, and not because the skill itself is inferior. The Knight is not meant to be your primary offensive tool, his purpose is protection. Bulwark has a mild regenerative quality, but primarily it shines because it eclipses all other forms of Threat management. True Strike can provide the Knight with a solid if occasional attack bringing to bear near-certain critical hits with every attack, including what that means for Sudden Death. And Discipline makes your Knight almost as unbeatable as the Barbarian. My main point here is that the Knight is a glorified shield, just like the Cleric is a glorified healing potion and the Barbarian is a glorified axe. They are all specialists and they should be judged by how well they perform their specializations, not by how they fail to be generalists. Might as well blame the generalists for how they fail to be specialists (like I did until now for the Warrior - to my shame). And that's my defense. I'll change the Warrior now, and welcome any further discussion on this topic or any other, Ktchong. Thank you again :)